Deep Roots: Animal Rights Blog

37 Responses to “Help Animals in Indiana – HB 1468”

1. Trish Brown - Harrell
   February 13th, 2009 at 10:01 am

   

   Paul,

   Thank you so much for helping spread the word and really support for this important issue!

2. Chris
   February 13th, 2009 at 11:11 am

   

   Its what we do. But who’s Paul?

3. easyVegan.info » Blog Archive » easyVegan Link Sanctuary, 2009-02-14
   February 14th, 2009 at 11:46 am

   

   [...] Deep Roots: Help Animals in Indiana – HB 1468 “Indiana House Bill 1468 passed through committee yesterday and is entering a vote in the House of Representatives in the next week. It is important that everyone contact their representative to let them know that you support HB 1468 because it will strengthen what is now a very weak animal cruelty code and will help put a stop to puppy mills in the state.” [...]

4. K.
   February 16th, 2009 at 8:00 pm

   

   Please support this bill,I have seen many dogs and puppies from mass breeders . It is very said the way these dogs are kept and care they receive.Some breeders have between 300 and 400 breeding animals! People in Indiana need to get this cruelty stopped.

5. concerned
   February 18th, 2009 at 3:34 pm

   

   eChris – in the same way you took the time to blog about this I am taking a moment to reply that to you that this bill has major issues as written. It actually worsens the quailty of breeding going on in Indiana. Puppy Mills are a great term to throw around but regulating breeding in a meaningful way is ideal but should involve those who actually are doing the breeding not just lawmakers. The author of this bill never consulted with actual breeders about what needs to be done to clean up the industry. Breeders are generally dog lovers and they want to see dogs cared for the in the best way possible as well. As written this bill will allow small time breeders using a spare bedroom in their house to raise 30 dogs. This has got serious flaws and should be voted NO until re-written and done in a manner to regulate breeding not just take a jab at “puppy mills”.

6. eChris
   February 19th, 2009 at 12:34 am

   

   concerned – judging by your email address, i’m guessing that you are either a breeder yourself or a part of the breeder lobby. if so, what are your suggestions for puppy mill legislation that would help stop breeders such as the example you gave?

   I agree that this bill is not perfect. What bill is? But I fail to see how this would hurt the cause of protecting dogs. As it stands now, there is absolutely no definition or regulation concerning puppy mills in Indiana. The few raids there have been have not resulted in the places being shut down, because you cannot shut down a place that has no laws against it. The facilities were simply strongly encouraged to hand over the majority of the animals (often times still leaving many animals in the “care” of the breeders). At least this bill will begin to create serious definitions of what can and cannot be done in the name of breeding. Once that is in place, then we can begin to perfect the language of the law to help shut down smaller breeders that also do not care for the quality of life of the animals they raise. Indiana has a long way to go in the struggle for animal rights, but the least we can do is to take a step forward.

7. Polly
   February 19th, 2009 at 12:50 pm

   

   Have you actually read this bill? This bill will criminalize anyone that breeds more than 5 puppies a year. Most breeds average 4-6 pups a litter and larger breeds commonly have 6-10 pups. It does absolutely NOTHING to stop people like my ex-neighbor who lets her Jack Russell/Rat Terrier bitch run the streets, getting pregnant every heat cycle. She has produced over 25 puppies that I know of, none vaccinated, most dumped at the shelter at 6wks of age. People like me who breed a litter once or twice a year and care deeply for their dogs, will be done. My puppies are sold on spay/neuter contracts with a health gaurantee. I will always take a puppy back if it doesn’t work out. Yes, there are puppy mills, but this bill won’t fix the problem. It actually encourages more commercial breeding and less of the hobby and show breeding. Only commercial breeders will be able to comply with all the requirements for building materials and santitaion. Do you know it requires each animal to be outside for an hour a day for exercise? That sounds good, but lets be realistic. No Chihuahua or Yorkie can withstand an hour in sub freezing weather like we’ve had lately. Remember the ice storm? I would NEVER leave my dogs out in that, but if this bill passes, I would have to or be turned in. We need to carefully read all of this bill before saying yes.

8. Doggirl
   February 19th, 2009 at 8:12 pm

   

   Problem is the bill will also punish responsible hobby breeders and dog show enthusiasts. People who love dogs, breed only to improve the health and temperament of their breed and promote the positive human animal bond. This bill needs to be reworded to focus in on the millers and leave the good, responsible breeders alone. It would be sad for Indianan to loose millions generated by competitive dog events every year. Or worse have the uneducated buying dogs online and shipping them from Mississippi or Texas mills because they can’t find a responsible breeder in the state.

9. nanderson
   February 19th, 2009 at 10:14 pm

   

   This bill is a joke!!! Yes, I am a breeder and a proud one of 15yrs. I take great care of my dogs. They are heated in the winter, cooled in the summer. They have a new building I just built for them! With big kennels inside and outside runs that are 6ft wide by 18 ft. long. They have Ag lime in the outside kennels with mats and mats and bedding on the inside. I love my dogs and can tell you just about anything you would want to know about each and every one of them. I am there when they are giving birth until they are done. I am constantly checking on them and caring for them. You people are trying to label all breeders as puppy mills. This is not true. I do agree that there are bad breeders and yes there should be something done. But, you are trying to put more regulations on raising puppies than we have on raising children. What about all of the neglected children out there? Why aren’t you fighting for them? I love my dogs and would do anything for any of them. But, no matter how you look at it they are a DOG NOT HUMAN. You people need to find new hobbies. I am so sick of you trying to ruin all of the animal industry. I have a right to raise dogs if I want and should have a right to raise as many as I want. I chose not to raise many, but there are others that do raise several. The back yard breeders that are out there will never be completely gone. This is what you claim you are trying to prevent. Well I will just tell you something. Most of your people that have 40-50-100 dogs lets say, have you ever stopped to think about the investement these people have in those dogs? Most of the time someone with that many dogs are taking good care of them because they have the investment. It’s the people that have 1-2 dogs and just breed them here and there that give the most crappy care a lot of times. They don’t study the breed to know the good and bad of the breed. There for they are not breeding to better the breed. They don’t know what to do if there dog has an emergency during labor or anything to the sort. You people need to look at the big picture here. Who is going to take in all these unwanted kennel dogs when this new law takes affect? Where are they gonna go? Most people want a cute pup not an old kennel dog. Oh, I forgot you want more homeless dogs so you can get more donations and make a killing $$$. Ya, I know your not for profit well what ever! I know how that system works. What is the affect going to be on the economy? Everyone is wanting more jobs. Well this bill is a sure way to loose several. Dog food industries, dog supplies who is going to need all of this. I would like for you to figure up how much money the dog breeders in Indiana spend on these things. Well there goes a crap load of sales tax and income tax for that matter. So, your state is suffering also, you will be eliminating jobs and taxes that benefit the whole state. Veternarians, well I alone spent around $3000.00 at my vet last year. Not just your average Joe spends that kind of money at your vet evey year. Oh, and if this bill is so wonderful why are you all excluded from it???? If we need to follow it you do too. For all we know you can be stacking 50 homeless dogs in your garages and not caring for them. Why do you not need the same rules. You know as well as I do there are good rescues and bad, just like there are good breeders and bad breeders. This bill is not acceptable. I belive some sort of rules need to be made, but this bill is not what needs to be done. You people that made up this bill and tried to sneak it through before we had time to respond, could at least consult some well known breeders and work with them to decide on the rules we need to follow. I think if it concerns our business then we should have a say. Why your at it start making some rules and regulations on how people should raise there children and how many they have since you are trying to treat animals as an equal.

10. nanderson
    February 19th, 2009 at 10:14 pm

    

    I forgot one more thing. IT’S NOT THE QUANITY OF DOGS YOU HAVE IT IS THE QUALITY OF CARE YOU GIVE!

11. abren
    February 20th, 2009 at 8:20 am

    

    it extremally amazes me that you people spend so much time, money and effort in trying to make these pets equal to humans, yet you same people are the one who have no problem seeing all these inocent babies being killed by the thousands just in indiana. the bible talks about in the last days the people will worship the creation more than the creator. so i guess this is just another one of the proficies being fullfilled.

12. Lori
    February 20th, 2009 at 4:41 pm

    

    How will the state pay for everything needed to enforce this?
    TAXES. Where will the new jobs come from for the people in the pet industry who loose theirs because there are fewer dogs, ie, groomers, Veterinarians, trainers, ect……………….
    The economy can not afford for anyone to support this bill!

13. becciandrews
    February 22nd, 2009 at 12:19 am

    

    I don’t even live in Indiana, and I support attempts to stop ongoing ‘selective’ breeding of partiicular dogs. Has the person who so ardently defended her care and love of her breed dogs visited an animal shelter lately? For every ‘specialty’ dog chosen, one more dog is doomed to be killed, because it has no one to love and care for it. The shelters are so over crowded now, and so many are NOT no-kill, that the “answer” to the problem is in a syringe. No rationalizing breeding dogs will stop the death of other beautiful canines, only encouraging people to adopt from shelters will!

14. Kim
    February 22nd, 2009 at 1:59 pm

    

    What part of this bill do you actually think will help stop puppy mills? This bill is out to harm every responsible breeder as well as puppy mills. I will not support a bill that comes across labeling me or the thousands of other responsible breeders/fanicers as ‘pet dealers’ or any other such label and burdens them with fines, rules and ridiculous regulations. There are already laws on the books to protect animals but those laws are not enforced. If you want to stop puppy mills, then put as much time and energy into educating people where NOT to buy a dog from as you put into trying to control EVERYONES lives. As someone who has been showing dogs for many years and having 1 or 2 litters per year I am offended by the animal rights idiots that lump everyone into the same catagory. My dogs are treated with love and the best care anyone could provide. I spend thousands of dollars per year ensuring they are healthy. I test my dogs, I feed a raw diet, I place my pups on AKC limited registration and a spay/neuter contract. My dogs are not in puppy mills, or back yard breeder homes. I am NOT part of the problem and bills such as these do not treat me any better then the scumbag who houses hundreds of dogs in filth. Yes I sell puppies to good homes. People who want a quality dog with a health gaurantee and not a shelter dog with unknown health or temperament history. People have a right to have a nice dog of their choice just as much as they have a right to own a nice car of their choice. These laws are not animals in the end. It’s about a group of people who wish to force their way of life onto everyone. I will fight to the bitter end to stop Animal Rights activist. Our group is growing twice as fast as yours. I am breeding my Champion dog next week and I hope to make a few thousand dollars to pay for showing my next dog to her Championship. I am proud of it.

15. AShidler
    February 22nd, 2009 at 2:56 pm

    

    OMG you took the words right out of my mouth nanderson!
    Very well put and so very true! I am also a GOOD breeder of 10 years. My dogs go to the vet quicker than I myself go to the doctor! I am known by name at my vet clinic, why? not because my dogs “are always sick” but because they are in there for everything they need! Which translates to good care, for those that can’t figure that one out. I also agree something has to be done, I myself have saw huge kennels with bad conditions, but a huge kennel does not always spell trouble, I’ve just as often saw a small famly breeder with horrible conditions! I believe there needs to be a registry for all dog breeders (I would be first to sign!) and then there needs to be regular checks on these. IF conditions are not favorable for the dogs, then do something, not a slap on the wrist, give them a week or two to fix things, if they are not, then shut them down. I’m all for a law like this. I’m not worried at all about my kennel. As for how many dogs a breeder can have? How rediculous! You can not say how many dogs any one person can take care of and do it correctly, it all depends on the individual and the income they have to support their kennel. Which goes back to inspections. And hey, this also provides for more jobs in a society that is failing and losing jobs everyday. In conclusion, this bill will do no good, it will only put more dogs in the shelters and have them more over crowded and the “not for profits” will be in doggie heaven with “profits” but isn’t that what all this is about anyway???

16. xACSx
    February 22nd, 2009 at 5:14 pm

    

    nanderson,
    Are you honestly implying that the wonderful people running reputable animal shelters are interested in this bill for the the purpose of making a profit off animal shelter donations?

17. Cindy
    February 23rd, 2009 at 10:45 am

    

    I do agree that there are bad breeders and yes there should be something done. However, you are trying to put more regulations on raising puppies than we have on raising children. This bill should be voted down; (rewrote) this will affect every Reputable dog breeder. I am a small show kennel of about 8 dogs, and do breed and Show my dogs, and may only have one litter in a year, but the litter might have eight puppies, so that means I am a pet dealer, NO WAY. I screen all my puppy owners, do a contract, and a health guarantee, all shots and worming. In addition, the parents have gone through the same including there CERF and OFA and microchip and then following AKC guidelines. The HSUS need to HUSH and mind there own business and maybe visit a puppy mill and leave us hobby breeders alone. If there is, someone with 300 or 400 breeding animals then put that in the bill. A puppy mill is not a small breeder, of one or maybe two breeds; it is someone that has several different kinds of breeds. Anyone can tell when you look in to the newspaper and they are advertising several breeds for sale.

18. Trish Brown Harrell
    February 24th, 2009 at 12:44 pm

    

    Obviously you have no idea what you’re talking about. Your prattle about quality of care is the joke. Animal Shelters are required to provide a standard of care seldom seen in mass breeding operations. Animals receive medical attention, are treated for internal & external parasites, are kept in kennels large enough to turn around in – not wire cages stacked one on top of the other as witnessed in several puppy mills in our area. Dogs are walked, excercised and receive human interaction. Not just kept in cages forced to reproduce litter after litter after litter. Not all puppy mill operators use veterinarians – for example the Amish. Most provide their own version of medical treatment.

    Yes, let’s talk economic stimulus while we’re at it. $2 billion a year spent in the US to euthanize the 5 million plus unwanted animals that end up in shelter. If we could remove that burden from the taxpayer than perhaps we could have a real discussion about economic stimulus. And as for the assumption that all shelter dogs are mixed breeds and not the “purebred” that you say is so desirable – you are the joke here – 30% of the animals that land in shelters are purebreeds. Puppy mill breeders seldom if ever can provide a lineage for the dogs they flood the market with. And those breeders that maintain that none of their puppies would ever land in a shelter are just being rediculous. Don’t even try to tell us that you follow up on each and every animal you sell.

    Domestic animals were never meant to be kept in a herd environment.

    Ghandi said that “you can judge the greatness of nation by the way it treats it’s animals” shame on us for treating man’s best friend as livestock.

19. eChris
    February 25th, 2009 at 3:18 pm

    

    polly – Yes, i have read the bill. I included a link to the bill in the post so that everyone can read it. I’m afraid you are mistaken, though. It does not criminalize anyone that breeds more than 5 dogs a year. What you are looking at is probably the definition of “pet dealer,” which is anyone that sells or offers for sale more than 5 dogs in 1 year.

    However, that is not saying that such people are now criminals. It is merely setting a legal definition of “dealer,” a definition that currently does not exist in Indiana. In order to write laws, we have to be clear to whom they pertain. This is so we know who has to follow certain standards of care. FYI, it defines a commercial breeder as anyone who breeds 10 or more LITTERS in one year. Again, not criminalizing at that point, just defining. I don’t even think this bill would affect hobby and home breeders. Just commercial breeders.

    The limitation on numbers that it requires of commercial breeders is as follows: [shall not] Maintain at a single address or location more than thirty (30) dogs that are at least one (1) year of age and that have not been spayed or neutered.

    Not many small breeders are going to have a problem with having less than 30 dogs over the age of one year AND have not been spayed or neutered. Am I wrong?

    The rest of your post I view as a straw man argument. As I’ve said earlier, I agree that this bill doesn’t cover everything, but it is better to make some progress than none at all.

    nanderson – either you haven’t seen the same mass breeding facilities that I have or you are insincere in your tirade on quality of care. either way, you are clearly here just to argue and not to debate, so I respectfully refuse to engage. You may believe that dogs are inferior species unworthy of compassion; I and Deep Roots will never agree with you on that point. Perhaps you can bait someone else.

    as for shelters and sanctuaries being excluded from the bill, we don’t breed. We don’t sell. Besides, Deep Roots does push for increased regulation of shelters. We are not hypocritical in this matter, so please do not assume so. We currently exceed all regulations for animal facilities such as ours. Yes, we do have to follow state and federal regulations. Regulations which do not yet exist for breeders in the state.

    lori – Conservative estimates show that 3-4 million cats and dogs are killed in shelters every year. This is partially due to overbreeding. Slowing down breeding will not put a dent in the number of companion animals in homes. It will merely put a dent in the number of animals that we kill every year because of our own excesses and vanity. On the question of taxes, I will gladly pay my pennies each year to ensure compassion. It is a very small price to pay. And a much smaller one than we pay each year for war and corporate welfare. Besides, Trish makes a good point on this matter.

20. HB1468 passes, needs your help in senate | Deep Roots: Animal Rights Blog
    February 25th, 2009 at 3:56 pm

    

    [...] House Bill 1468, known as the Puppy Mill Bill, passed the Indiana House last week in a landslide vote of 81 to 14! Thank you to everyone that contacted their representative. This vote would not have been nearly as successful without you. [...]

21. Joe Newlin
    February 26th, 2009 at 2:37 pm

    

    I know that this bill is heavily influenced by HSUS. I also know that it was introduced into a different amendment having to do with parole boards.

    There are three MAJOR flaws to this bill.

    1. The bill does not distinguish between “good” breeders and “bad” breeders. We know that both exist, we know that there are already laws against the behavior of the “bad” breeders. With the mentality of this bill, you could be cited for speeding, just for driving down the road….you are in a car, and you are moving…so you must have been speeding.

    2. The details and definitions are anti-dog breeding, NOT anti-puppy mill, so the “Animal Rights” agenda is being advanced against ALL dog breeding unfairly. Some of the replies in this blog point to “have you been to a shelter” and quoting the number of dogs euthanized yearly in the US. We know where you stand.

    3. There is NO enforcement in this bill and there is no proof that existing laws are inadequate. What’s to stop the “puppy mill” owner from becoming a certified dealer? Most if not all of them ALREADY ARE registered with the USDA, and already have a record keeping standard. So just what exactly is to be accomplished by passage of this bill? What law does it change, or what method of law enforcement does it change??? NOTHING is the correct answer.

    4. The irresponsible dog buyer is protected. The bill as written has “puppy buyer” protection or puppy lemon laws built into it. However, there are no restrictions on puppy ownership, there are no restrictions on the care of that puppy once purchased. You really want to crack down on the number of homeless dogs in shelters? STOP MAKING IT EASY TO BUY A PUPPY AND ABANDON IT WHEN IT’S NO LONGER CUTE!

    I’m tired of the rationale that the bill “is not perfect”….that does not fly…it’s so flawed as to be unenforceable and detrimental to the responsible breeding of dogs. I’m not against regulation of puppy mills,

    I am not against responsible dog ownership, responsible pet breeding, hobbiests, and show dogs or pets. I AM opposed however to puppy mills and bad laws….

22. eChris
    February 26th, 2009 at 6:51 pm

    

    Joe – i’ll respond to your four points in order.
    1) yes it does. that’s the entire purpose of the bill. it creates a law that first defines what a commercial dog breeder is and then sets up regulations for what a “good” (or rather an acceptable) breeder is (Chapter 4 of the bill). It doesn’t penalize everyone that is defined as a commercial breeder. Just those that are defined as such and refuse or are unable to fulfill the minimum requirements set out in Chapter 4.

    2) This seems to be a matter of opinion. This bill is a matter of animal rights, though, I agree. In this case, the believe that animals have the right to live in an area big enough to turn around, not to live in their own feces, not in total darkness, etc. However, this bill is in no way against ALL dog breeding. Far from. You can still feasibly have 30 litters a year according to this bill. Even more if you have multiple breeding facilities.

    3) There is proof that existing laws are inadquate. No current law in the state applies specifically to companion animal breeders. USDA does not have domain over this area. Enforcement is a good question, but that is not the purpose of these two houses of government. We don’t enforce rape laws without flaw, but that doesn’t mean the laws shouldn’t exist. But I certainly wouldn’t say that the laws are unenforceable. I think it is likely that you will see independent parties getting involved with enforcement (as recently happened in Chicago when laws regarding horse carriages were not being enforced).

    4) First, this bill doesn’t deal with buyers because it wasn’t written to do so. Bills are usually pretty specific on purpose. Second, there are laws regarding “ownership”. However, they are very minimal and lax in this state. Third, I agree that we need to make it more difficult for irresponsible people to take animals home. That is a very difficult legal and political battle, though. One that we are and will continue to look into, though. But that is not the issue at hand. Breeding is.

23. nanderson
    March 3rd, 2009 at 5:58 pm

    

    Ok, well I have so much to say I don’t even know where to start? I guess first Hats Off to Ashidler, and everyone else that has supported me. 2nd to Kim, yes I have been to my local shelter lately and I do support our local shelter by the way. You know, I am friends with the lady that is in charge there. So, ya I know what goes on and I know that most of the dogs that come there are mix breed dogs. Myself as a breeder screen my puppy buyers and I offer lifetime breeder support. Meaning if they have a problem they can contact me any time and I will help them with any situation I can. If they can no longer care for the dog I help them place the dog in another home. I also know many of my friends that are breeders do the exact same thing. So, I know most of my pups that I sell are not going to animal shelters and so on. Our local animal shelter is a pretty good one. She does her best to see that all the dogs are cared for in every way. But, you know what so do I as a breeder. I guarntee you that I give my dogs more and better medical care than I give myself or my husband. This is not a fight about who gives better care or what ever. It is like I read in one of the postings earlier, you are trying to push your way of life on everyone and rule what everyone does if they are a breeder. I totally believe in my dogs having excellent care, like I said before. There needs to be something done, but this is not it. You people can not comprehend the the fact that you are just punnishing all breeders. Not just the puppy mills, that you say you are trying to stop. What do you classify as a puppy mill??? Anyone that has over 30 dogs or what? Why was the limit 30 adult dogs? Who decided this? I looked at the Flordia and California bills and they are allowing up to 50 adult dogs? Why is that? Also why hasn’t anyone really commented on the part about why you people are trying to put more rules on raising dogs and there are none on raising children?
    One more time, I do have compassion for my dogs, I love them dearly! My family and I spend more time with our dogs than probably 90% of the average public that have pets in their homes. Just because you have a pet in your house does not mean you spend time with it like you should. I don’t care who you are, where you are, or how wonderful you are, or how much you think you know. There are always going to be dogs in shelters and homeless. There are always going to be irresponsible pet owners. I completely agree you people need to spend more time trying to educate people on owning a dog and less time attacking the breeders. Oh, and for the record to repond to xACSx I know there are good shelters and that, but what you need to realize is there are bad ones too. Just like there are good breeders and bad breeders. You are putting us all in the same catagory as “Puppy Mills” So why shouldn’t I catorgorize you with the money hungry shelters??? Ya, not fair is it??? Why can’t you people actually talk with and get opions from good breeders? I am sure most breeders would be more than happy to work and communicate with you to come to an agreement. Why does it have to be your way or no way, when you all think you need to be exempt from the law to start with. I think if you can make our rules then we should be able to make yours. How would you like that? Oh, I know the bill doesn’t deal with buyers, but maybe it should. That would put an end to a lot of the mix breeds out there, which are most of what you find in the shelters. I listened to a radio station where you can buy, sell, or trade. It was interesting what I heard. Several free mix breed dogs, which most likely will end up at the local shelter when they are tired of trying to give them away and cann’t. It again goes back to the irresponsible owner that let their dog get nocked up by their neighbors. But, they are not a breeder so none of this applies to them. So, they want to put them in a bag and throw them in the river, so be it. Or they stuff them in the garage until they are 6 months old and no one wants them at that age, cause they are not that cute 8wk old pup anymore. Then they just turn them lose or take them to the shelter or what ever. Do you get the POINT???? THIS BILL IS NOT THE ANSWER!!! IT IS NOT THE QUANITY OF DOGS YOU HAVE IT IS THE QUALITY OF CARE YOU GIVE!

24. nanderson
    March 3rd, 2009 at 9:48 pm

    

    I have a few more questions for the animal rights people. Why is it you can raise children in a rusty fence, but not a dog? Why is it that you must excerise your dogs but not your children? Why is it that you can circum size a baby boy with out an anesthesia and you can not dock a puppies tail with out anesthesia? No matter what you do or how you look at it dogs are not an equal and never will be. If you read the bible at all, you should know that it says that animals were placed on earth to serve humans. This does not mean we are to abuse them. We have an obligation to these loyal creatures to care for them and love them, but they are not equal. Maybe you try to treat your pet as an equal, that is great, good for you. But, others have should have the choice to raise a specific breed. As long as we are talking breed specific, then anyone posting info. on here better have never purchased or recieved in anyway shape or form a pure bred dog. You people are trying to give dogs more rights, which some of them are good ones. But, on the other hand some of them down right suck and are not practicle to breeders. If you have never been a breeder, then you have no clue. While you are trying to give these dogs thier rights on the other hand you are taking away my rights and many millions of others rights. You take one picture of a poor little puppy or abused dog and show it to the world and make them think that all dog breeders treat thier dogs this way. It is called false informing I believe. What about the puppies that have wonderful homes and are loved? Do you ever show pictures of good kennels or happy dogs that breeders raise? Nope! Thats what I thought. You find one bad apple and put us all in the same bag with it. Answer me this if these laws are so wonderful, why do you PETA people, shelters, and everyone that is exempt not have to follow it? No, your not breeding dogs, but you most of these facilities or individuals come in contact with just as many or more dogs than some breeders do. It’s ok for you to just do what ever? I want you PETA people to step up to the plate and say you will follow the same rules as far as exercise, kennel space, and everything that involves the care and housing of the animals. I’m currious just how many of you would change your minds? How will you like to have to redo your whole facility?

    IT’S NOT THE QUANITY OF DOGS YOU HAVE IT’S THE QUALITY OF CARE YOU GIVE!!!

25. nanderson
    March 3rd, 2009 at 10:58 pm

    

    Oh, fellow PETA personel! I have another question. I was just thinking. I have just had some of my dogs OFA certified and I have owned thier parents for years, so I pretty much know what I am selling, thier health, ect. and I will stand behind what I sell. So, when a person purchases a dog from a shelter or a rescue, who knows it’s history? It’s health? Who is going to guarantee this animal? If it is taken to the vet and found out it has hip dysplasia or a heart defect, do they get the dog replaced at no charge? Are they just stuck with the dog and it’s medical bills? What happens on this turf? What if you don’t have a similar dog and they want one? I feel the public has the right to purchase a dog that it’s history is known. As breeders we have to give a 15day health guarantee if the law passes that is and then on and on about after it’s a year old and all that. How long do you guarantee the health of a rescue or shelter dog? Are they OFA certifed or ect.? Just wanted to know. Also sometimes you don’t know if a shelter or rescue dog comes from an abusive home. What if they get the dog home and it turns on them or the puppy was abused by children and a family with kids purchases it and it hurts that kid? What then? I know most rescues expose the dogs to different situations, but shelters do not. Just trying to make you see shelters and rescues are not the perfect answer either. No one answered my question about what is going to happen to all of the kennel dogs that will be out their if this law takes affect? When people that have over the limit have to eliminate thier dogs. Where are they gonna go? Do you people have enoght time and money to take them on? Oh and when you start following these rules with us, you won’t be able to have over 30 dogs either. You saying you have a facility to house 150 dogs is just the same as a breeder saying it. How is it different? Just because your not breeding the dog? Big deal you still have adults and puppies and you still sell them. Some may not make a big profit, but some do. Just like some breeders make a big profit and some don’t. I could see it if you were giving the dogs away, but ya don’t you find them a home and sell them just the same as a breeder does.

    Oh, and by the way I have been breeding dogs for years and I was a 10yr. 4-H dog club member and did fun shows, AKC and ect. My son is currently in 4-H with one of our dogs now. That we neglect and abuse because we are breeders!!! HA! HA! Joke of the day!

    Thanks and have a good night!

    IT’S NOT THE QUANITY OF DOGS YOU OWN IT’S THE QUALITY OF CARE YOU GIVE!!!

26. SherL
    March 4th, 2009 at 12:46 pm

    

    I totally agree with Joe Newlin and NAnderson.
    The bill is so all wrong, it has no benefits. It should be thrown out and totally rewritten to stop what should be stopped, leaving the caring devoted breeders out of it.
    It is attacking the wrong people without helping the pet. I am totally against puppy mills, pet shop puppy sales and puppy brokers, BUT there are caring and dedicated breeders that breed for the betterment of the breed and not just for a quick buck. They genuinely love their dogs.

27. SherL
    March 4th, 2009 at 12:59 pm

    

    And another thing…I have seen children get less care, and parents have a whole passel of children…neglect and let their kids sit in front of a tv or play station for hours..not feed them right, grab a cookie, donut or sandwich, NO exercise and very little obedience or respect any more and get governent aid without being able to support their own children (I’m not talking about emergency job losses)….and the law and government not do as much about this as they do about pets. Like I said in previous post, there are so many things wrong with this bill and for the wrong reasons. Priorities are in the wrong places. I have seen animals starving in the winter and you call people and it is hard to get them to do anything to help the animals. If people cannot take proper care of the animals, they should not have them. All pets should have proper shelter and daily interaction and attention and not just fed and watered.
    That is why good breeders screen their potential buyers extremely carefully and always have a health contract with a take back any time for any reason policy with lifetime support.

28. becciandrews
    March 6th, 2009 at 1:44 pm

    

    To nanderson. Why do you separate yourself from animal rights activists? In your blogs, you discuss ad infinitum
    about how much you care for your animals, and get them medical care before getting medical care yourself? As for the innuendo/insult about “if you read the bible”, and then went on to state that animals were put here to serve “man”, but “are not equal”. Nanderson, if you were to read about or know anything about many Native American beliefs, ALL THINGS ARE CREATED EQUALLY, NONE ARE BETTER THAN OTHERS! Check it out, you might be delightfully surprised at the notion of equality. FYI: The texts included in the modern bible were chosen by the emperor Constantine, a Roman convert. There were many, many apocraphies left out. Keep searching and you may get the ‘rest of the story’. Have a good day!

29. Kim
    March 7th, 2009 at 10:11 pm

    

    You are also assuming that if someone owns 30 dogs they are breeding them ALL every heat and making big bucks. You say what would any one person need with 30 dogs? Well personally I would never own that many but who am I to say someone else can’t? While puppy mills are an issue, this bill does not target only a puppy mill. Hunter Joe might have 30 hunting and trial dogs that he spends his whole life dedicated to them, training them, showing them, hunting with them and breeding whenever he wishes to keep something from his own line to continue his hobby. The puppy mill guy has his all in filthy cages, never socialized, bred for money only. Thats a problem with me when ALL breeders are targeted and treated the same. I show my dogs. I have 5 intact females. 3 of which are geriatric and have not had a litter for a couple of years and wont have another. I spent around 8000.00 to finish my last CH. That was hotels, entry fee’s, gas, handler fee’s, show pictures etc. I feed a very pricey raw diet to my dogs. They all live in the house and sleep our bed our couch or their own custom made dog beds. I am breeding my new Champion when she comes in season. She could have 8 or 14 puppies! It’s a surgical implant breeding with a stud dog who lives in WA state. Careful selection, health testing via OFA has all been done and was not cheap either. The stud fee is 1500.00, the semen collection and shipping is another few hundred. The surgical implant is anywhere from 5 to 8 hundred depending on how many progesterone test we have to run. I am chaging a pretty penny for my puppies. I MUST if I want to continue my passion in my breed. It is not cheap to do things right. I could creless if anyone wants to ‘think’ I am making a boat load of money off my dogs. It is a VERY common misconception pushed by those who want to rule everyone elses life. I hope she has 12. I will charge 1800.00 per puppy and I hope to make enough to break even on this years expenses and start showing my next show girl. This law will label me a ‘pet dealer’. This is unfair and wrong on so many levels. It is easier to buy a car then it is to qualify for one of my pups. I have a great relationship with my pet owners. I know where ALL of my puppies are. If they do not go to show homes, they go on limited registration, spay neuter contract. I AM NOT THE PUPPY MILL PROBLEM and I do not want to be treated as such! I do not want to be labeled a ‘pet dealer’. I do not want to be treated like a criminal for being a responsible breeder. Education is the key to stopping puppy mills. Not new laws that harm everyone and lump anyone who ever breeds a dog all into the same twisted catagory.
    Take all the money it will cost to try and enforce this law and put it into education instead. Forget about ‘Stop Puppy Mills’ and throw all that energy into How to purchase a pet campaigns. Billboards, Educational News paper ads, Visits to schools to talk to kids about the importance of responsible pet owning etc. The fastest way to stop a puppy mill is getting people to STOP BUYING FROM THEM.

30. nanderson
    March 9th, 2009 at 4:03 pm

    

    To: becciandrews
    Take this how you want. I am not a Native American and I have my own beliefs just like you do. When an animal can have a house, get a job, drive a car, and support its family, then I will consider my animals as an equal. Until then they are my pets that I promise to always love and take care of if that is not good enough for you then I don’t know what to tell you. I am actually someone that cares about their pets. So, you need to get over your self and leave people like me and several of the others alone. We are good respectfull breeders and you people are trying to tell us we are not. We are not attacking you, you are attacking us and trying to run our lives. Why didn’t you answer any of the questions about raising children? Are they not an equal? At least they are human, unlike pets. Oh, if we are all equal why are humans at the top of the food chain? So, are you going to let a dog on a raw diet eat you or your children for lunch???

    Have a nice evening!

31. eChris
    March 9th, 2009 at 11:31 pm

    

    i’ve been busy with other things and don’t really have time to answer in depth to a lot of this, but it seems like most folks have said their piece anyway. so i’ll try to make this brief.

    nanderson – sounds like you take care of your dogs and thereby aren’t who this bill is intended to oversee. maybe i missed something, but i don’t remember anyone accusing all small breeders (or even all breeders) of abuse and neglect. this should be a forum for discussion, not offensive and defensive rhetoric.

    however, seems like we are still going to disagree over this bill because you seem to prefer a laissez faire approach to government. can’t say i blame you. it is a sad day when we have to depend on a government body to make laws of conscience.

    since we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one, lets try to abstain from red herring arguments. this is why i am not answering your questions about the treatment of children. i do not feel they apply to this particular discussion. that is not to say we shouldn’t talk about the status of children in our society, but that is not the topic at hand. however, laws against child abuse are more potent and have greater penalties than those pertaining to non-human animal abuse.

    also we are in no way associated with PETA. in fact, we have not bit our tongue when it comes to criticizing PETA (although probably for different reasons than your own). if you mean for such a claim to be derisive, then I will ask you to abstain from commenting on this site. this is a place for discussion, not childish name-calling.

    on that note, i didn’t get the impression that becciandrews was trying to tell you that you are bad breeders, she was just pointing out that there are other ways of looking at the world than humans as dominant and all others as subordinate. maybe you saw something i didn’t, maybe its just you getting defensive. just trying to say how i saw things from my perspective.

    on the topic of humans having dominion over animals (as the Bible states), i would recommend reading Dominion by Matthew Scully. he has an interesting perspective as someone fully entrenched in Conservative politics (used to be George Bush’s speechwriter and has been a longtime contributor to the magazine American Conservative).

    as for humans being at the top of the food chain, that is only true if we are armed and alert (and trained). humans may not get eaten very often, but we do get eaten. sharks, bears, big cats, etc. but this is us getting off topic again.

    SherL – again, not going to continue the discussion of child neglect and abuse. not the topic at hand. as for breeders who carefully screen their buyers, great! we do that, too. i would love for us to be at a point where all those dealing with companion animals are able to do that. but to get to that point, in my opinion, we need to regulate those breeders that don’t give a damn about the animals. they merely see them as products and machines turning profit for their own purposes. i agree that there are caring breeders out there. and i think that this bill leaves plenty of room for those breeders to exist. i would be happy to have a discussion about the specifics of the bill. rather than the ethereal or the hype.

    Kim – we do need to get people to stop buying from puppy mills, but we cannot do that without this bill for a couple of reasons. 1) there is currently no definition of a puppy mill (this bill helps in that process by first defining what a commercial breeder is and then defining what a “bad” commercial breeder is), and 2) private entities do not currently have to say where the animals are coming from, and most will tell you that they get them from small family breeders (which many of you will agree is not so because most good breeders prefer to sell directly so that they can screen who is buying the animals and to maintain relationships with those animals/families).

    its not a matter of owning 30 dogs. its a matter of owning 30 dogs that are not spayed/neutered and are over the age of 12 months. many cities have laws that say you can’t have more than three companion animals, spayed/neutered/or not. now that is a bit excessive in my opinion. at that point, it is not a matter of quantity, but quality of care.

    sounds like “Hunter Joe” might be fine. if he has 30 dogs or less and cares for them the way that you mention, then there is not problem with this set up according to this bill. now if he starts to deny them food and water, forces them to live in inadequate housing, etc, then that is when the law begins to affect him. this bill doesn’t treat all breeders the same, it sets up standards of care. i don’t see what the problem is in that if you are already meeting or exceeding those standards, which you and others in this discussion seem to do.

32. nanderson
    March 11th, 2009 at 9:32 pm

    

    Hello, once again. Ok maybe I am a bit defensive and maybe all breeders are right now. We just feel like everyone is attacking us. This bill is ok in some points, but some are not ok. I don’t feel that this is the proper bill to have pass, to accomplish what needs to be done. You need more focus on your Joe Schmoe breeder that has no clue and is letting his dog get knocked up by who ever. Then also the larger breeders that give crappy care. There has to be another way. I think if someone can provide proper care to 100 dogs or more should be able to. I also think that all rescues and shelters should have to follow the same bill if it is going to be passed… Tell me why they should not have to follow these rules? It is just as important for a shelter dog to have proper kennel space, excercise, food, water, and housing as it is for a breeders dog to have these things right??? That is one of the things that makes me so mad. Why should we all have to do these things and not shelters? If a shelter is capable of caring for 100 dogs why cann’t a breeder. Just because a breeder only has 1,2, 3, 5, 10,20 dogs does not mean they are taken care of. I have seen breeders with 60 dogs that take better care of their dogs than the other breeder that only has 5 breeding dogs. Tell me why we can not try to educate buyers and sellers for that matter? I would love to be able to go to more local seminars and things. I do research on the internet and listen to a live phone confrence once a month. But, there are so many people that are uneducated about dogs and a lot of them would like the chance to be more educated. I think more education would help a lot. I think people would start to take more responsiblity and maybe turn in the puppy mill breeders. I know I don’t have all the answers, but neither does this bill. I think who ever wrote the bill should at least give the breeders a chance to speak and give their ideas that work and don’t work. Why would that be so hard to do? You know I would hate to have to give everyone I sell a pup to the health guarantee that they are asking us to give. We don’t know the conditions that pup has been in. Breeders need to have some room to lay down some laws with people. They can have say a Great Dane a year and be feeding it small breed puppy food. Take it to the vet at 1 yr of age and get a full refund or replacement pup if that pup has hip dysplasia. But, in large breed dogs if you don’t feed large breed puppy food they can get hip dysplasia from growing to fast and it would have nothing to do with my breeding program. But, yet the law would state that I have to give them another pup or a refund. That is crap!!! I know I don’t have all the answers but, I would like to be heard. NO on is listening though. I do appologize for classifying you with PETA if you are not. But, I feel like all breeders good and bad are being classified as Puppy Mills if you have over so many dogs.

    Have a nice eve.

33. Sue White
    March 21st, 2009 at 11:43 am

    

    Please support this bill. These animals are being treated horribly all in the name of money. You would think with the way the economy is now, you would have the sense to pass this bill, to help with costs that are spent on shelters and other things related. Just think, pass the bill, fewer animals ending up in shelters which would cost less to run. Also, fewer strays wandering the streets, therefore, less money spent on animal control, less chance of the animals getting hurt as strays, less chance of humans getting injured by them. If a person thought hard enough, I’m sure they could think of more. Pretty much a no brainer here folks. Please make the right choice!

34. nanderson
    March 30th, 2009 at 3:50 pm

    

    Sue White- NO there are going to be more animals in the shelters. Who is going to take all these older unwanted kennel dogs? YOU??? I bet not! There will be thousand of dogs put down, homeless, no food, water, ect. Exactly what you are trying to prevent. Most dogs in shelters are muts that your average person that has a dog and let them get knocked up by the neighbors dog. Then when no one wants them they leave them somewhere to die or they take them to a shelter. This bill will not prevent this in anyway. Your responsible breeders find the pups good homes by screening the new families just like rescues and animal shelters do. They also offer a return policy if for any reason they can no longer care for the dog or just do not want it anymore the breeder takes the dog back and finds it a new home. I have done this a few times myself and it has turned out wonderful. You have no clue of the real world of dog breeders. Talk to a few and get the real picture instead of looking at the news where they take one bad breeder and label us all that way. Besides that why should the animal shelters and rescues, ect. be exempt from this law? They should have to follow all of the same rules regarding space, excercise and kennel construction and ext. DO NOT PASS THIS BILL!!!!! IT’S THE QUALITY OF CARE YOU GIVE NOT THE QUANITY OF DOGS YOU HAVE! I know people that have one dog. It is on a chain and is lucky to get fed and watered, turned them in and nothing was done. So how is that better by haveing one dog and not caring for it and I have several and they are all well cared for. What is wrong with that picture?????

35. Kim
    April 1st, 2009 at 5:10 pm

    

    There are no laws that have been placed that have lessened the stress on shelter. Look at Florida and Louisville with their over the top strict laws and guess what.. The shelters are still over run. NOTHING changed. So get your head out of the sand. EDUCATE, Not 1468!

36. becciandrews
    April 11th, 2009 at 10:01 pm

    

    To; NAnderson. Chris was correct. I was in no way trying to relegate you, or others that provide the kind of loving care you do as bad, I was offering a different life perspective based on your bringing up the Bible. While this is not the correct forum, I completely agree with the need for more care to be put into the raising of our children. I have spent 20+ years providing Social Work and Therapy services to many client populations, and know only too well more needs to be done for families. Have a good Holiday NANDERSON! becciandrews

37. rushy
    December 4th, 2009 at 4:01 pm

    

    i think that people shouldn’t hurt animals because their people like us and its uncalled for i mean they just sit there looking cute and people just walk up and hurt them like its nothing i understand if their mad but take it out on a punching bag not a living, breathing creature i mean its not like they hurt us first!!